Pierre Legay, the Grand-Pierrot.

Pierre Legay. (1st conversation.) — (2nd conversation.) — (3rd conversation.) — On the Spirits who still believe themselves alive, by Saint Augustine.

— Pierre Legay, called Grand-Pierrot. (Continuation.)

(Paris, August 16, 1864. – Medium: Mrs. Delanne.)

— Pierre Legay was a wealthy farmer somewhat fond of self-interest, who had died two years earlier and was a relative of Mrs. Delanne. He was known in the region by the nickname Grand-Pierrot.

The following conversation shows one of the most interesting aspects of the invisible world, that of the Spirits who still believe themselves alive. It was obtained by Mrs. Delanne, who communicated it to the Society of Paris. The Spirit expresses himself exactly as he did in life; the very triviality of the language is a proof of identity. We had to suppress some expressions that were familiar to him, on account of their crudeness.

— [1st conversation.]

Mrs. Delanne says: “For some time we had been hearing knocks around us; presuming that it might be a Spirit, we asked it to make itself known. It promptly wrote: Pierre Legay, surnamed Grand-Pierrot.

Q. – So here you are in Paris, Grand-Pierrot, you who had such a desire to come here?

Answer. – Here I am, my dear friend; I came alone, since she came without me. And yet, I had told her so many times to warn me… but, at last, here I am. I was annoyed, because they paid me no attention.

Observation. – The Spirit alludes to Mrs. Delanne's mother, who for some time had come to live in Paris, at her daughter's home. He designates her by an epithet that was habitual to him and which we have replaced with her.

Q. – Is it you who knock at night?

Answer. – Where do you want me to go? I cannot lie down in front of the door.

Q. – So you lie down in our house?

Answer. – But, obviously. Yesterday I went out walking with you (to see the illuminations). I saw everything. Ah! how lovely that is! Splendid! It may be said that they made beautiful things. I assure you I am very pleased; I do not regret my money.

Q. – By what route did you come to Paris? So you were able to leave your parts?

Answer. – But, the devil! I cannot dig and be here at the same time. I am very glad to have come. You ask how I came; well, I came by railway.

Q. – Who were you with?

Answer. – Well, upon my word of honor! I did not know them.

Q. – Who gave you my address? Tell me, too, where the liking you had for me came from.

Answer. – But when I went to her house (Mrs. Delanne's mother) and did not find her, I asked the keeper where she was. He told me she was here: so I came. And then, you see, my friend, I like you because you are a good fellow; you pleased me, you are frank, and I like all those children. You see, when one likes the parents one also likes the children.

Q. – Tell me the name of the person who keeps my mother-in-law's house, since she has the keys in her pocket.

Answer. – Whom did I find there? Why, it was old Colbert, who told me that she had told him to keep watch.

Q. – Do you see my father-in-law here, papa Didelot?

Answer. – How do you expect me to see him, if he is not here? You know perfectly well that he is dead.

— (2nd conversation, August 18, 1864.)

Having gone to spend the day at Châtillon, Mr. and Mrs. Delanne there made the evocation of Pierre Legay.

Q. – So, you came to Châtillon?

Answer. – But I follow you everywhere.

Q. – How did you come here?

Answer. – You are funny! I came in your carriage.

Q. – I did not see you pay the fare!

Answer. – I got on with Marianne and then your wife. I thought you had paid it. I was up on top; nobody asked me anything. Did you not pay? Why did the conductor not claim it?

Q. – How much did the train fare from Ligny to Paris cost?

Answer. – On the railway it is not the same thing. I went on foot from Tréveray to Ligny; then I took the train and paid the conductor.

Q. – Was it indeed the conductor you paid?

Answer. – Whom did you want me to have paid? But, my cousin, do you then believe that I have no money? I had set money aside long ago to come. It is not because I did not pay the fare that they should think I have no money. Otherwise I would not have come.

Q. – But you did not answer me how much you spent on the railway journey from Nançois-le-Petit to Paris.

Answer. – But, b… I paid like the others. I gave 20 francs and they returned to me 3 francs and sixty centimes. See how much that is.

Observation. – The sum of 16 fr. and 40 c. is, in fact, the one marked in the railway price guide, which the Delanne couple were unaware of.

Q. – How long did you take on the railway from Nançois to Paris?

Answer. – As much as the others. They did not make the locomotive run faster for me than for the rest. Besides, I could not find the time long; I had never traveled by train and I thought Paris was much farther. What astonishes me most is that old rogue (the mother-in-law of Mr. D…), who comes there so often. By God! I am glad to be able to run about with you. Only, you often do not answer. I understand: your affairs burden you greatly. Yesterday I did not dare go back with you in the morning (the business firm where Mr. D… is employed) and I went to visit the cemetery of Montmartre, I believe; is that not what you call it? You must tell me the names so that I can recount them when I return there. (Indeed, Mr. and Mrs. Delanne had gone in the morning to the cemetery of Montmartre).

Q. – Since nothing holds you to the region, do you think of leaving soon?

Answer. – Only after I have seen everything, since I am here. And then, upon my word of honor, they (his children) may well stir themselves a little; they will do as they please. When I am no longer here, they will have to do without me. What do you say, cousin?

Q. – What do you think of the wine of Paris? and of the food?

Answer. – It is no better than the one I made you drink (The Spirit alludes to a circumstance in which he made Mr. D… drink wine that had been bottled twenty-five years before); nevertheless it is not bad. As for the food, it is all the same to me; I often eat bread at your side. I do not like to dirty a plate; it is not worth it, when one is not accustomed to it. Why stand on ceremony?

Q. – Where then do you sleep? I have not noticed your bed.

Answer. – On arriving, Marianne went into a dark room; I thought it was for me; I lay down there. I spoke to everyone several times.

Q. – At your age, do you not fear being run over in the streets of Paris?

Answer. – Ah! my cousin, what annoys me most are those carriages; that is why I do not leave the sidewalks.

Q. – How long have you been in Paris?

Answer. – You know perfectly well that I arrived last Thursday; I believe it has been eight days.

Q. – As I have not seen your trunk, if you need linen do not constrain yourself.

Answer. – I took two shirts; that is enough; when they are dirty, I will return home; I would not like to trouble you.

Q. – Will you tell me what old Colbert said to you before your departure for Paris?

Answer. – He has been in Marianne's house for a good while. When it was sold, he still wished to remain there. He says he does not disturb anyone, since he keeps watch over it.

Q. – You said yesterday that you did not see my father-in-law Didelot, because he is dead. How then do you see old Colbert so well, who has also been dead for at least thirty years?

Answer. – Ah! you ask what I do not know; I had not reflected on this. What is certain is that he is there quite at peace; more than that I cannot tell you.

Observation. – Old Colbert was the former owner of the house of Mrs. Delanne's mother. It seems that since his death he remained in the house, of which he made himself keeper, and that he, too, still believes himself alive. Thus these two Spirits, Colbert and Pierre Legay, see one another and converse as though they still belonged to this world, not realizing their situation.

— (3rd conversation, August 19, 1864.)

Q. – (To the medium's spiritual guide.) We would like you to give some instructions concerning the Spirit Legay, and to tell us whether it is yet time to make him understand his true situation.

Answer. – Yes, my children, since yesterday he has been disturbed, on account of your questions; everything is confused for him when he wishes to know, for he does not yet claim the protection of his guardian angel.

Q. – (To Legay.) Are you here?

Answer. – Yes, my cousin, but all this is very strange. I do not know what it means. Do not leave without me, Marianne.

Q. – Have you reflected on what we asked you to tell us yesterday concerning old Colbert, whom you saw alive, when in truth he is dead?

Answer. – I cannot know how this happens. Only, I have already heard it said that there were apparitions. By God! I believe he is one of those. Say, however, what you will: I saw him perfectly. But I am tired; I need a little rest.

Q. – Do you believe in God and do you say your daily prayers?

Answer. – I swear I do; if it does no good, it can do me no harm.

Q. – Do you believe in the immortality of the soul?

Answer. – Oh! that is different. I cannot pronounce on this; I doubt it.

Q. – If I gave you a proof of the immortality of the soul, would you believe?

Answer. – Oh! so the Parisians know everything? That is all I ask. How will you do it?

Q. – (To the medium's guide.) May we make the evocation of old Colbert, in order to prove to him that he is dead?

Answer. – There is no need to go so quickly; bring him back gently. Afterward this other Spirit will fatigue you greatly this evening.

Q. – (To Legay.) Where are you placed, that I do not see you?

Answer. – You do not see me?! Ah! this is too much! Are you then blind?

Q. – Do you realize the manner in which you speak to us, since you make my wife write?

Answer. – I? I swear I do not.

— (Several new questions were addressed to the Spirit and remained without answer. They evoked his guardian angel, and one of the medium's guides answered what follows).

“My friends, it is I who come to answer, for the guardian angel of this poor Spirit is not with him; he will come only when the Spirit himself calls him and beseeches the Lord to grant him light. Since he still remained under the dominion of matter and would not listen to the voice of his guardian angel, the latter withdrew from him, as he persisted in remaining stationary. Indeed, it was not he who made you write; he spoke as usual, persuaded that you were listening to him; but it was his familiar Spirit who guided your hand. For him, he was conversing with your husband; you were writing and all this seemed to him quite natural. But your last questions and your thoughts carried him to Tréveray; he is disturbed; pray for him and later you will call him; he will return quickly. Pray for him; we will pray with you.”

— We have already seen some examples of Spirits who believed themselves still alive. Pierre Legay shows us this phase of the life of Spirits in the most characteristic manner. Those who find themselves in this case appear to be more numerous than one thinks; instead of constituting an exception, of offering a variety in the punishment, it would be almost a rule, a normal state for Spirits of a certain category. Thus, we would have around us not only the Spirits who are conscious of the spiritual life, but a multitude of others who, so to speak, live a semi-material life, believe themselves still in this world, continue to wander, or think to devote themselves to their earthly occupations. Nevertheless, it would be a mistake to assimilate them in every respect to the incarnate, because one notices in their attitudes and in their ideas something vague and uncertain, which is not peculiar to corporeal life; it is an intermediate state, which gives us the explanation of certain effects in spontaneous manifestations and of certain ancient and modern beliefs. A phenomenon that may seem more bizarre and does not fail to make the incredulous smile is that of the material objects which the Spirit believes himself to possess. It is understood that Pierre Legay imagines himself getting onto the train, because the railway is a real thing, it exists; but it is less understood that he believes he has money and paid his fare.

This phenomenon finds its solution in the properties of the perispiritual fluid and in the theory of fluidic creations [see Furniture from beyond the grave], an important principle which gives the key to many mysteries of the invisible world.

Whether by will or by thought, the Spirit operates upon the perispiritual fluid, which is nothing but a concentration of the cosmic fluid or universal element, a partial transformation that produces the object he desires. Such an object is for us an appearance, but for the Spirit it is a reality. It is thus that a Spirit, recently disincarnated, one day presented himself at a Spiritist gathering to a seeing medium, with a pipe in his mouth, smoking. To the observation made to him, that this was not proper, he answered: “What would you have! I am so in the habit of smoking that I cannot do without my pipe.” What was more singular is that the pipe gave off smoke; not, naturally, for those present, but for the seer. Everything must be in harmony in the spiritual world, as in the material world; for corporeal men, material objects are needed; for Spirits, whose body is fluidic, fluidic objects are necessary; material objects would not serve them, just as fluidic objects would not serve corporeal men. Wishing to smoke, the smoking Spirit would create a pipe which, for him, had the reality of a clay pipe. Legay wanted money to pay the fare: his thought created the necessary sum. For him there is really money, but men could not content themselves with the coin of Spirits. Thus are explained the garments with which they cover themselves at will, the insignia they wear, the different appearances they can assume, etc. The healing properties given to the fluid by the will are also explained by this transformation. The modified fluid acts upon the perispirit, which is similar to it, and that perispirit, intermediary between the material principle and the spiritual principle, reacts upon the economy [the organism], in which it plays an important role, though still unknown to Science.

There is, then, the visible corporeal world with material objects, and the fluidic world, invisible to us, with fluidic objects. It is to be noted that Spirits of an inferior order and little enlightened operate these creations without realizing the manner in which such effects are produced in them; they cannot explain it, just as an ignorant person of Earth is incapable of explaining the mechanism of vision, nor a peasant of saying how the wheat grows. Fluidic formations are connected to a general principle, which will later be the object of a complete development, when it has been sufficiently elaborated.

The state of Spirits in the situation of Pierre Legay raises several questions. To which category precisely do the Spirits belong who still believe themselves alive? To what is this particularity due? To a lack of intellectual and moral development? Many who are inferior realize their state perfectly, and most of those whom we have seen in this situation are not of the most backward. Is it a punishment? Perhaps it is so for some, as for Simon Louvet, of Le Havre, the suicide of the tower of Francis I ⁿ who, for five years, was in the apprehension of the fall (Spiritist Review of the month of March 1863); but many others are not unhappy and do not suffer, as Pierre Legay attests (See, as an answer, the dissertation that follows). Spiritist dissertations. ⁿ

— On the Spirits who still believe themselves alive.

(Society of Paris, July 21, 1864. – Medium: Mr. Vézy.)

We have already spoken to you many times of the various trials and expiations; but do you not daily discover new ones? They are infinite, as are the vices of Humanity. How are we to establish their nomenclature for you? And yet, you come to ask about a fact, and I will try to instruct you.

Not everything is a trial in existence. The life of the Spirit continues, as has already been told you, from birth into the infinite; for some, death is nothing but a simple accident, which in no way influences the destiny of the one who dies. A fallen roof tile, a fit of apoplexy, a violent death, often only separate the Spirit from its material envelope; but the perispiritual covering preserves, at least in part, the properties of the body that has just succumbed. If I could, on a day of battle, open the eyes you possess but which you cannot make use of, you would see many struggles continuing, many soldiers still hurling themselves into the assault, defending and attacking the redoubts; you would even hear them uttering hurrahs and war cries, amid the silence, and beneath the gloomy veil that follows a day of carnage. The combat over, they return to their homes, to embrace the old fathers, the old mothers, who await them. For some, this state sometimes lasts a long time; it is a continuance of earthly life, a mixed state between corporeal life and spiritual life. Why, if they were simple and honest, should they feel the cold of the tomb? Why should they pass abruptly from life to death, from the brightness of day to night? God is not unjust and leaves to the poor in spirit this pleasure, waiting for them to see their state through the development of their own faculties, and to be able to pass calmly from material life to the real life of the Spirit. Take comfort, then, you who have fathers, mothers, brothers, or children who were extinguished without struggle. Perhaps it is still permitted them that their lips draw near to your brows. Wipe away the tears: weeping is painful to you, and they marvel to see you weep; they encircle your neck with their arms and beg you to smile at them. Smile, then, at these invisible ones, and pray that they exchange the role of companions for that of guides; that they open their spiritual wings, which will permit them to soar into the infinite and to bring you their gentle emanations. Note well that I do not tell you that all sudden deaths cause the Spirit to fall into this state. No; but there is not a single one whose matter does not have to struggle with the Spirit that returns to itself. There was the duel, the flesh was torn, the Spirit was darkened at the moment of separation and, in erraticity, recognized the true life.

Now I will say a few words to you about those for whom this state is a trial. Oh! how painful it is! they believe themselves alive and quite alive, possessing a body capable of feeling and of delighting in the pleasures of Earth; yet, when their hands wish to touch them, these vanish; when they wish to bring their lips to a cup or to a fruit, the lips are annihilated; they see, they wish to touch, but they can neither feel nor touch. What a beautiful image paganism offers of this torment, in presenting Tantalus thirsty and hungry and never able to bring his lips to the spring of water, which murmurs in his ear, or to the fruit, which seems ripe for him! There are curses and anathemas in the cries of these unfortunates! What did they do to endure such sufferings? Ask God: it is the law, which was written by him. He who kills by the sword shall die by the sword; he who profaned his neighbor shall in his turn be profaned. The great law of retaliation was written in the book of Moses and is still in the great book of expiation. Pray, then, unceasingly for those who reach the final hour; their eyes will close; they will sleep in space as they slept on Earth and, on awakening, will find no longer a severe judge, but a compassionate father, assigning them new works and new destinies.

Saint Augustine. ⁿ [Review of April 1865.]

— Pierre Legay, called Grand-Pierrot.

(Continuation.

– See the Review of November 1864.)

Pierre Legay, a relative of Mrs. Delanne, offered us the singular spectacle of a Spirit who, two years after his death, believed himself still alive, devoted himself to his affairs, traveled by carriage, paid his fare on railways, visited Paris for the first time, etc. We publish today the conclusion of this state, which would be difficult to understand if we did not refer to the details given in the Review of November 1864 [articles above]. In vain had Mr. and Mrs. Delanne tried to dissuade their relative from his error; his spiritual guide had told them to wait, for the moment had not yet come.

In the first days of last March, they put the following question to their guide:

Since the last visit of Pierre Legay, mentioned in the Spiritist Review, we have not been able to obtain any answer from him. You said, in this regard, that when the moment came, he himself would give us his impressions. Do you think he can do so now?

Answer. – Yes, my children; the hour has come. He will be able to answer you and will furnish you with several subjects of study and of instruction. God has his reasons.

Q. – (To Pierre Legay) Dear friend, are you here?

Answer. – Yes, my friend.

Q. – Do you see my purpose in evoking you today?

Answer. – Yes, for I have, beside me, friends who have instructed me about all that is happening so admirably at this moment on Earth. My God, how strange all this is!

Q. – You say that you have friends who surround you and instruct you. Can you say who they are?

Answer. – Yes, they are friends; but I knew them only after I awoke. You know that I slept? I call sleeping what you call dying.

Q. – Can you tell the name of some of these friends?

Answer. – I have constantly at my side a man, whom I should rather call an angel, for he is so affable, so good, so beautiful that I judge all angels must be like him. And then, there is Didelot (Mrs. Delanne's father), who is also here. Next, your parents, my friend. Oh! how good they are! Ah! – how funny all this is – I also find our mother superior. She is always the same; she has not changed. But how curious all this is! Note. – The sister whom the Spirit designates resided in the commune of Treveray, and had given the first instructions to Mrs. Delanne. She manifested only once, three years before.

Look! You too, gardener! (a familiar name given to an uncle of Mrs. Delanne, who had never manifested himself). But how foolish I am! We are at your niece's house. Well then! I am glad to see you. This puts me at ease, because, upon my word of honor! I am transported I know not how for some time now; I go faster than by railway and I traverse space without being able to account for how. Are you like me, Didelot? He seems to find all this natural, as though he were already accustomed to it. Besides, he has done it longer than I (he died six years ago) and I understand that he is less surprised. Ah! how funny all this is! very funny! Tell me, you know, my cousin, with you I am at ease. Well then! Tell me, then, frankly, what is it that is called dying?

Mr. Delanne – My friend, to die is to leave on Earth the gross body, in order to give the soul the liberation it needs to enter the real life, the great life of the Spirit. Yes, you are in it, dear friend, in that world still unknown to many men of Earth. Here you are emerged from the lethargy or torpor that follows the separation between the body and the soul. You see your guardian angel, friends who surround you; it was they who brought you among us, to prove to you the immortality and the individuality of your soul. Be proud and be happy, because, as you now see, death is life. This too is why you traverse space with the swiftness of lightning and can converse with us in Paris, as though you had a material body like ours. You no longer have that body; now you have only a fluidic and light envelope, which no longer retains you to Earth. Pierre Legay – Singular expression: to die! But, then, give another name to the moment when the soul leaves its body on Earth, because that instant is not the moment of death… I remember… Scarcely had I freed myself from the bonds that held me to the body, and my sufferings, instead of diminishing, only increased. I saw my children, each one disputing to have the portion that fell to him. I saw them taking no care of the lands I had left them and, then, I set myself to work even harder than ever. I was there, lamenting to see that they did not understand me; therefore, I was not dead. I assure you that I experienced the same fears and the same fatigues as when I had my body and yet I no longer had it. Explain this to me. If that is how one dies, it is a funny way of dying. Tell me your idea about this and then I will tell you mine, because now these good friends have the kindness to tell it to me. Come, my cousin, tell me your idea.

Mr. Delanne – My friend: As I told you, when Spirits leave the body, they are enveloped in a second body; this one is fluidic; they never abandon it. Well then! It is with that body that you believed yourself to be working, as in the life of the other. You can purify that semi-material body by your moral development; and if the word death does not suit you to specify that moment, call it transformation, if you wish. If you had to suffer things that were painful to you, it is because you yourself, in life, perhaps attached yourself too much to material things, neglecting the spiritual ones, which concern your future. (He was much fond of self-interest). It is a small punishment that God imposed upon you to redeem your faults, granting you the means to instruct yourself and to open your eyes to the light. Pierre Legay – Well then! my dear, it is not to this moment that the name of transformation should be given, because the Spirit does not transform itself so quickly if it is not immediately helped to recognize itself through prayer, nor enlightened as to its true position, whether, as I have just said, by praying for it, or by evoking it. That is why there are so many Spirits, like mine, who remain stationary. For a Spirit of the category of mine, there is transition, but not transformation; he does not perceive what is happening to him. I dragged, or rather, believed I dragged my body with the same difficulty and the same ills as upon the Earth. When I detached myself from my body, do you know what I experienced? Well then! that which one experiences after a fall that stuns for a moment, or, better said, after a fainting, from which one is made to recover the senses with vinegar. I awoke without noticing that the body had left me. I came to Paris, where I am, thinking myself even here to be in flesh and bone, and you could not have convinced me of the contrary if I had not in fact been dead. Yes, one dies, but not at the moment when one leaves the body; it is at the moment when the Spirit, perceiving its true position, is seized with a vertigo, no longer understands what is said to it, no longer sees in the same way the things that are explained to it; then it is disturbed. Seeing that it is no longer understood, it searches, and, like the blind man who is suddenly struck, it asks for a guide who, naturally, does not come all at once. It is necessary that it remain some time in the darkness, where everything is confused for it; it is disturbed; it is necessary that desire impel it ardently to ask for the light, which will be granted to it only after the agony is over and the hour of liberation has come. Well then, my cousin, it is when the Spirit finds itself at that moment that is the moment of death, because it no longer knows how to recognize itself. It is necessary, I repeat, that one be helped by prayer to come out of that state, and it is also when the hour of liberation has come that the word transformation can be employed for Spirits of my order. Oh! thank you for your good prayers, thank you, my friend. You know how much I loved you and I will love you still much more now. Continue with your good prayers for my advancement. Thanks to the man who knew how to divulge those great holy truths, with which so many others before him did not deign to occupy themselves. Yes, thank you for having associated my name with so many others. They prayed for me reading a few lines that I had come to give you. Thanks, too, to all who prayed for me; today, thanks to prayer, I have come to understand its reach. In my turn, I will try to be useful to all. This is what I had to tell you, and rest easy. Today I have no more money to lament, but, on the contrary, I have all my time to give you.

Must this change not surprise you greatly? Well then! henceforth it will be so, for now I see very clearly, there and from afar.

Pierre Legay.

Observation. – The new state in which Pierre Legay finds himself, ceasing to believe himself in this world, may be considered as a second awakening of the Spirit. This situation is connected to the great question of spiritual death [loss of the perispirit], which is under study at this moment. We thank the Spiritists who, in view of our account, prayed for this Spirit. They can see that he perceived this and found himself the better for it. [1] The tower of Francis I shortly before its destruction:

http://lehavredavant.canalblog.com/archives/2010/01/17/16548761.html [2] Translator's note: Although the title Spiritist Dissertations does not appear in the original, Allan Kardec recorded it in the table of contents, which is why we restore it in its proper place.

[3] [see Saint Augustine.]